Pit Bull / Timber Wolf hybrid

[Guest Mutts4Me]

Some people. :lol: :lol:

Was at Petco today for kitten food and toys (kitten broke his Christmas present; luckily, they sell replacement parts) and saw a beautiful Pit Bull. Asked the owner if it was a Pit Bull (one of the last times, I called a pit bull a pit bull, the owner got offended. Maybe it was an AmStaff?), she siad yes, and I got to pet him. Yahoo was his name. Very sweet.

Went to Petsmart to compare prices and saw no Pit Bulls (at one point I had a 4/4 Pittie streak at Petsmart). Had to go back to Petco, and while I'm standing in line, this guy comes up the sidewalk, and I'm staring at one of his dogs. One is a shaggy black/brown mix, and the other looks fairly like a giant Pit. Not one of the monster, low ride mastiffy things, but a tall, lean (proportional), light brindle and white Pit Bull. As they're coming up, I'm thinking about what he might be mixed with. I think a Presa/Pit mix is highly likely. He's about the size of the male Presa I met, just a bit lankier. His ears are mostly stand-up, which pits' often do, but I would accept a Pit/Shepherd mix, even, although there weren't any obvious Shepherd characteristics.

So they finally come in, and I grin at the dog, then ask the owner what it is, and the guy proudly declares [b]"Oh, he's a Pit Bull, Timber Wolf mix!"[/b]

I almost choked.

If there weren't any Shepherd-esque characteristics, there was certainly nothing in that dog that said "Wolf." Also, wolf hybrids have been illegal in Michigan for years, and that dog didn't look old enough to be grand-fathered. And it didn't look like a wolf.

I fought the urge to LMAO, but couldn't help smiling, so I just grinned and said "Really??" like I thought it was as cool as he did. "Yup, but he's a sweetheart, just spoiled rotten."

So I asked if I could pet him, and he said yeah, just to not let him jump, so I pet him and didn't let him jump. And just kept grinning, because I wanted to laugh so badly. (I don't know if this is actually funny, but I thought it was hilarious at the time) And he finally walked away talking about how sweet his dog was.

[__crazy_canine__]

I wonder why he thinks the dog has wolf in him.... :-? Kinda weird.

He should be careful about saying that though, someone might actually believe him and take his dog away.

[Seijun]

He probably thinks it is part wolf because he probably thinks one of the parents was a wolf or part wolf. People will believe anything. I once met a lady with a dog she said was 98% wolf even though it looked 98% rottweiler.

The newest trend has been Pit Bull/wolf and Rottweiler/wolf mixes. These wolfdogs are bred and sold by breeders as being good guard or "attack" dogs. It is doubtful however that any actually have wolf in them. Wolves are shy and like to avoid fighting. A true Pit Bull or Rottweiler/wolf mix would most likely not make a good guard or attack dog and would not be marketable as such. All of the Pit Bull/wolf mixes and Rottweiler/wolf mixes I have seen thus far were most likely mixed with Husky or German shepherd mixes (like the one you saw), not wolves.

~Seij

[Seijun]

Oh yeah, and I always have to smirk when someone says the dog is part "Timber wolf." Most people are led into believing that Timber wolves are a Gray wolf subspecies. They are not. "Timber" is used to describe [i]any[/i] of Northern forest-dwelling wolf subspecies. Responsible breeders never refer to their wolves or wolf mixes as [b]just[/b] "Timber wolf." They should know exactly what wolf subspecies is in the mix, so when someone with a wolf mix has no clue what kind of wolf is in the dog other than "Timber wolf" that can be an automatic marker that they bought from an irresponsible breeder (which in turn usually means the dog has little or no wolf in it anyway).

This guy needs to be careful though, if he gets caught it's almost always an automatic death sentense for the dog even if the only "proof" is that the owner at one time said the dog was part wolf. That's all the state needs.

~Seij

[Guest Mutts4Me]

I really wanted to tell him that he shouldn't be saying that for this exact reason - they're illegal, and they can be taken and euthanized. But I didn't want to offend him, and you really have to wonder about someone who's [i]that[/i] proud and [i]that[/i] excited to have wolf hybrid. He was excited to tell me it was a wolf hybrid, so I don't know that he'd be willing to stop, even for the dog's own safety.

Seij, that was part of why I was laughing so much (or wanting to). And when I got home and told my dad about it, I was like "and he said Timber Wolf. Timber Wolf!!! NO way he knew what he was talking about." My dad was confused, and I didn't try to explain.

Sheesh. That dog was so pretty, and so sweet. Wanted to take him and run.

[__crazy_canine__]

I wish you wouldve had your camera! :cry: :lol:

[Guest Mutts4Me]

I know it. I need to start carrying my camera.

A couple weeks ago, I was walking to the car with my family, in the grocery store parking lot, and I looked at this dog in the cab of a pickup truck and almost tripped over my own feet. Honestly, that dog looked like a wolf. Not like a husky, and not like a shepherd. Like a wolf.

There are still wolf hybrids here which were grandfathered when the exotic laws passed a few years ago. My parents ran into one at Petsmart getting groomed, and when they commented that he looked wolfish, the owner pulled out his papers (exotic permit) and showed them that he was a wolfdog, and he was legal.

So I just stared at the dog in the parking lot and wondered. If I'd been by myself, I'd have just waited for the owner to come out so I could ask.
Guess I'll never know, now.

[MBM]

that guy will be told, hopefull it will be a friend and not the law. I worked in a grooming shop here in san diego and we had a "Wolf" come in. The guy had certs and a liscense for exotics that we had to have copies of just to groom her. She was red, and absolutely gorgeous. I am no expert but I can tell you that just being near her and touching her was a real treat. If she wasnt all wolf she was the closest I've ever come across. She wasnt lovey, but she would sit next to you just in touching distance and let you rest a hand on her shoulders. She was something else.

[Seijun]

It's really sad the number that are misrepresented though. Rescue work would be so much easier if breeders didn't sell misrepresented wolfdogs. Of the 52 or so wolfdogs on my Adoption page, only about 6 have wolf in them [b]for sure[/b], only about 4 have a [i]good chance[/i] of being part wolf, and all the rest probably have little or no wolf in them at all.

~Seij

[Lucky Chaos]

I've met a two wolfdogs before. Even though I don't believe they should be intentionally bred, you have to admit its very exciting just to be around one. The two I know are owned by a really nice lady who rescued them. She almost never tells people about them because I think they're illegal here. I know most worlfdogs are mis-represented, and most have no wolf in them at all, but I spent a few summers at a zoo and took a special interest in the four wolves they had there, and the similarities between the wolves and these dogs was unmistakeable.

[Guest Mutts4Me]

[quote name='pwrpufgirlz']I guess at least it didn't seem like he was trying to be a TUFF guy with not only a pittie, but a wolf also, right?[/quote]

Oh no, he wasn't acting all macho about it at all. He was too busy telling me what a sweet baby his huge pit/wolf was :lol: He in no way was acting like a jerk, which concerned me even more, if that makes sense. He seemed really proud and excited about his supposed hybrid, and it's not safe for him to be going around telling people his dog is part wolf. Plus I don't think it should be viewed as a good thing to have a wolf hybrid at all. I don't think they should be bred. I'm grateful to those willing to take in the existing ones and give them homes, but I don't even think most those people think it's "cool" to have a wolf hybrid, it's just something they have to do.

[Seijun]

Guess what popped into my inbox this morning.... We now have another supposed wolfdog to rescue, it was confiscated from a man who admitted to AC that it is "part wolf." The guy lives in MI.

~Seij

[Seijun]

[quote name='Mutts4Me'] Plus I don't think it should be viewed as a good thing to have a wolf hybrid at all. I don't think they should be bred. [/quote]

:D I support just about anything, including the people's freedom to responsibly breed and own whatever they want. I'd love to have a high content Arctic wolf mix wolfdog someday and the only way to get one is through a breeder-which is fine with me since it means I won't have to worry about it having serious health and temperament problems.

~Seij

[Guest Mutts4Me]

Yeah, I won't get back into it, since we've already had debates about people's rights to own lions and tigers, too.

There are tons of wolfdogs (or supposed wolfdogs) in Michigan. The new laws only came into effect a couple years ago, and I doubt most owners went out and got the papers to grandfather their dogs. Michigan has an active wolf population in both penninsulas, more so in the upper, but still some in the lower, so if people really wanted a wolfdog, there are ways.

[Seijun]

FYI, I don't think the wild wolf population would make it any easier. It would be extremely hard to use wild wolves to "make" wolfdogs unless you got lucky enough to find a den of wild wolf pups under the age of 12 weeks. Wild wolves under normal conditions would rarely breed with a domestic dog unless it was a lone wolf who had for whatever reason given up hope of ever finding a mate of it's own kind.

~Seij

[Seijun]

[quote name='Mutts4Me']Yeah, I won't get back into it, since we've already had debates about people's rights to own lions and tigers, too.
[/quote]

Awww, but defending wolf/dog breeding is so much more fun :D

~Seij

[Guest Mutts4Me]

No, but I would expect there to be a higher population of wolfdogs in areas that actually do have wolves than areas that don't. I didn't mean to imply that there was still active Wolf and Dog breeding going on just because there are wild wolves here. Rather, I think there's still a lot of wolfdog (supposed and real) breeding stock still here because there was so much to begin with. Wolf and Dog hybridization had to start somewhere, and it still does occur since there're still high-content hybrids being sold in places. When it was still legal (a few years ago), I've no doubt there [i]were[/i] people tracking and capturing wolf puppies. Maybe there still are, in areas where it's less likely to be noticed (or cared about). Whether there is or not, I think there's a good possibility that Michigan (and other states with long-running wolf populations) has a larger number of wolf hybrids than (most) states that don't...

[quote name='Seijun']
Awww, but defending wolf/dog breeding is so much more fun :D
[/quote]

Go ahead, I just said [i]I[/i] wasn't getting into it. You can defend it all you want ;)

[courtnek]

the big thing around here lately is "coyote/dogs"....I keep hearing people saying their dog is part coyote. I'm assuming they can breed, since they are basically the same species, and there are a lot of wild coyotes that have come back here in the last ten years, but I have yet to see a Coyote Dog...

[Seijun]

I only know one coydog breeder. They're good people and they produce 50% F2's which would be a lot easier to care for than the F1's. I hope to get an animal from them someday as I am curious to know how a coydog compares with a wolfdog. I did know one coydog at one time. She was lower content, but deffinately a coydog (small, thin frame, triangle head, classic coyote look and gait). She was EXTREMELY social and outgoing, and very bossy with the other dogs. It's would be fairly uncommon to run into a coydog as people friendly as that one was. I loved her though, I wonder whatever happened to her (her owners moved from here). I've had people try to convince me that Shilo is part coyote. The breeder I know has a few black phase coydogs, stunning animals, and they do look a lot like my Shilo, but she just doesn't have the right frame for coydog.

~Seij

[courtnek]

couldnt they go either way tho? the same as a mix breed. there is the possibility it could take on more of the characteristics of one animal then the other, like Free. To the untrained eye she looks like a pure black lab.
her father was a pure yellow lab, but the mother was a heinz 57, yet she still looks more like a lab than anything else. and I have seen other dogs that are mixed rotts/sheps, that look more like rotts, or more like sheps.

wouldnt it work kinda the same way, or no?

[Seijun]

[quote name='courtnek']couldnt they go either way tho? the same as a mix breed. there is the possibility it could take on more of the characteristics of one animal then the other, like Free. To the untrained eye she looks like a pure black lab.
her father was a pure yellow lab, but the mother was a heinz 57, yet she still looks more like a lab than anything else. and I have seen other dogs that are mixed rotts/sheps, that look more like rotts, or more like sheps.

wouldnt it work kinda the same way, or no?[/quote]

With rottie mixes I have noticed the rottie characteristics seem to be more dominant (physically).

With wolf mixes, huskies seem to be the most popular of the three main breeds to mix with (out of husky, mal, and GSD). All three breeds can look fairly wolf-like, especially the husky. When mixing the two, it's difficult to tell whether the husky or wolf is dominant because both blend together so well when mixed. I really can't say for sure, but with husky/wolf, both seem pretty even in half mixes. With mal/wolf, the mal can be seen more in half mixes. With GSD/wolf mixes, GSD characteristics seem the most dominant in half mixes, especially those big ears. There are also F#'s to take into account. With F1 crosses (pure wolf bred to pure dog or wolfdog). Wolf characteristics are guaranteed to show in the pups. The same goes for the dog breeds. A pure GSD, mal, husky, etc bred to a wolfdog are guaranteed to show some characteristics in the resulting pups. Once you get into F2

[Seijun]

I would also like to add though that there is one breeder I know of who produces F3's and 4's within the 50-60 or 70% range, but she has worked at it long enough that even with the high F#, her pups are pretty well uniform in their basic appearences. Once you become familiar with her animals it becomes very easy to spot a wolfdog from her breeding even among an entire group of different wolfdogs from different breeders.

~Seij

[zanzytinks]

As far as a pit bull and a wolf mix breed go, together they are not a mean breed. i have two wolf pit dogs and they are my life. they are very very good guard dogs and take after the wolf as far as smarts go.i live by myself now so i need their lovings and they are nothing more then big babies. my dogs will not attack any one with out my permission. I'm not claiming them to be wolf i know they are wolf. my mother owns the mother (which is the wolf) and she has papers on her. she is a sweet heart, the best dog one could ask for. i have two of her pups which are my wolf pit mix (which was not intended to be) the pit got in the yard and had his way with her when she was in heat. so here are now the pit wolf mix dogs. Pits aren't mean dogs unless they are raised to be mean or abused in any way. just like any other dog. pits are just raised to be mean bc they have the lock jaw and they don't stop no matter what in a fight. But a wolf and a pit crossbreed has no mean in it unless you teach it to them.

[wolfdogs]

a "hybrid" is a cross between two species. A dog and a wolf are the same species. Therefore, the term "wolf hybrid" does not apply to a wolf dog cross.

Ken C.
President
Wolfdog Rescue Rescouces, Inc.
[url]http://www.wrr-inc.org[/url]

[rotten wolf]

[quote name='Seijun']He probably thinks it is part wolf because he probably thinks one of the parents was a wolf or part wolf. People will believe anything. I once met a lady with a dog she said was 98% wolf even though it looked 98% rottweiler.

The newest trend has been Pit Bull/wolf and Rottweiler/wolf mixes. These wolfdogs are bred and sold by breeders as being good guard or "attack" dogs. It is doubtful however that any actually have wolf in them. Wolves are shy and like to avoid fighting. A true Pit Bull or Rottweiler/wolf mix would most likely not make a good guard or attack dog and would not be marketable as such. All of the Pit Bull/wolf mixes and Rottweiler/wolf mixes I have seen thus far were most likely mixed with Husky or German shepherd mixes (like the one you saw), not wolves.

~Seij[/quote]
You talk like you have the slightest clue as to how you can identify if a dog has wolf in it. I live in new mexico and have been breeding wolf hybrids for 15 years. I have just recently begun crossing them with rotties.You are correct about a wolf being shy and avoiding confrontation(BUT) put one on a leash and take it for a walk and see what happens...(They will put themselves between you and anything that comes up to you Cause after all you are the alfa) Rotty and wolf mixess, I have kept one out of eleven and the only things that look wolf on her is the long neck and the extra set of K-9s. The K-9s are the #1 way to tell if a dog has any amount of wolf in them worth talking about. So with that being said unless you are willing to piss off someones dog enough for them to bear their teeth at you and show you the wolf in them, Or you can continue being little pansies and logging on to your web site so you can talk trash about them or you could even do the real outlandish and maybe educate yourself a little bit more about recognising mixed breeds.