need some insight?

[pyrless]

We have been having an issue between our 16 month old 90 pound female Pyr and our ten year old, eleven pound Pomeranian. Everything was fine between the two until Sasha (the pyr) was about 8 months old. Suddenly she became protective of her food/treats/rawhides, around Muffin (the pom) only. My husband and I can take stuff from her, stick our hand in the bowl, whatever, nothing. Sasha is also not bothered by Taz, our 3 year old Elkhound, who is a true alpha. At any rate this progressed to the point where they first were separated, then crated, while eating, then while WE were eating, then to no rawhides/treats at all. Sasha attacked Muffin once and drew blood. I have talked to two behaviourists and a trainer who all say the same thing-it is a pack issue. So we started a strict feeding routine, brushed up on obedience and NILIF and everything was fine for like a month. Sasha went after Muffin again while we were cooking the other night. Going on the assumption that this is a food issue, we were like, okay, crate 'em while we're cooking. Then last night I was reading in bed, Muffin on one side and Sash on the other, like we have done a million times. Sasha laid her head on my chest, then a couple minutes later-BAM she's trying to get over me to get muffin! Clearly this is not a food issue. The only other thing I can think is Sasha is possessive of me-she is very bonded to me. We don't know what to do except keep them always separated. I am honestly in fear for Muffin's life-it's not like she can fight back. Does anyone have any insight on this? I am just too buried in it to think right. It is so upsetting!

[3ofakind]

It is a pack issue. The pyr is trying to establish herself above the pom. If you are ok with that then you can ease your troubles by showing the pyr that you as alpha accept and uphold it. That means that she gets your lap not the pom, she gets to go first before the pom at everything, etc.

Or if you are not comfy with that then you need to stand firm in your establishment of the pack order and re-affirm it everyday. The pom should eat first, gets treats first, go outside first etc.

Remember YOU are the alpha and you make these decisions, and they should not be left up to the dogs. I have 3 and had problems at feeding time. For months I sat on the floor between all 3 of them. When they finished eating they were not allowed to move, they had to sit until I released them. So they all had to wait until everyone was finished. Then Mary went out, followed by Stewie, and then Finny. You have to constantly re-inforce who fits where, as soon as you waiver the lesser dog will try to move up in the ranks. Now Finny has finally accepted he is last in line and doesn't give me any more trouble.

You aren't specific as to whether Taz is male or female but I think another part of the problem may be female to female aggression. It is quite common in some breeds but I dont know about pyrs specifically. Might be something worth discussing with your trainer.

You saw the fruits of your labor, I think maybe something in your behavior triggered it to start again.

Last resort is keeping them seperated at all times.

JMHO

[DogPaddle]

Your Sasha does sound like she is coming into adulthood and establishing her place in the pack. She knows she is sub to the people and your elkhound but she has determined that your pom is sub to her. So anything is included in sub/aplph behaviour - food, best bed spots, toys, treats, attention from higher pack members - anything. With two dogs of similar size it is sometimes best to let them sort it out as interveneing prevents them from clearly establishing rank and usually they will not injure each other (you would of course intervene if they did.) With one big dog and one tiny it is definately more complicated.

As I see it you have a few options but I'm no behaviourist or trainer so feel free to correct me or ignore me.

1. Enforce your own view of pack order:
You decide what the pack order is and enforce it rigidly. This would meen feeding the dogs in order, giving more alpha dogs more attention and special privilidges and jumping all over anydog that decided to change the order you set. If you make the smaller dog more alpha it will save it being picked on and possibly injured IF you can gaurentee the other dog will follow your lead - if you can't you set the smaller dog up for some serious injury. If you make the larger dog more alpha and the smaller will not challenge and will accept the more restricted role with less perks this may work better but watch for pointless bullying. This is not a choice I would be eager to take - tricky.

2. Try to put them all on equal footing with no one having any rank but you:
Jump all over any bullying - if one dog gets snarky with another because your petting both of them put the snarky dog in the kitchen and continue petting the well behaved one. Feed them all at same time in their own crates. Let none in the kitchen while you cook or eat. Basically continue doing what your already doing.

3. Get a behaviourist to actually work with the dogs in your own home:
Opinions are one thing but you need someone to help maybe. It could be expensive but may be worth it.

4. Completely segragate the quarreling dogs:
Large crate and xpen enclosure in another room or something. Each quarrelling dog gets equal free time with the rest of the family and any dogs it tolerates. Otherwise they are "in their room."

5. Medication - see a vet, this is pretty extreme.

6. Rehome one of the dogs using a breed rescue or private volunteer group that has you keep the dog until new home is found - takes time. Also pretty extrreme. You may have to wait a bit though. Your Pyr is not fully mature and may start challenging your other dog or may not. If it is just the little dog then it is easier to rehome the little dog - small dogs find homes easier and dogs needing to be the only dog in a household (as your Pyr would probably need to be listed for rehoming) is often quite difficult especially for a large dog.

In any of these cases I would invest in some Rescue Remedy or some other herbal calmer while your working on it to make life easier for everyone. Here are some websites:
[url]http://www.preciouspets.org/newsletters/articles/bach.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.petfooddirect.com/store/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=173[/url]

[pyrless]

thank you for replying so quick! :D
Taz is male, yes. And yes, female-female aggression can be an enormous problem with Pyrs, however that aggression is usually directed towards large, similar (working-type) breeds like Rottweilers, Malamutes, German shepherd dogs.
I am fine with Sasha being above Muffin in the pack-she is younger, stronger, bigger and has a generally more "dominant" personality.
Does this mean, however, that Muffin can no longer be a "lap dog"?/sleep on the couch, etc. Or does that [i]naturally [/i]make Muffin higher than Sasha in the pack, and therefore should we be enforcing [i]that[/i]?
The reason this has me so upset is the immense size difference.
Is it also possible that they just don't like each other, whatever that means in the dog brain?

[DogPaddle]

Yes if you decide to go enforce/let Sasha be dominant to Muffin then Muffin may rarely be allowed to be on your lap, maybe never - it is a position of prestige. At least until you have things under control, you may be able to slowly reintroduce lap time for Muffin later but be careful.

[pyrless]

hi dog paddle, just read your post too!
The option that makes the most sense to me is no one getting any rank but us. The pack order between the girls has never been obvious to me as it is with Taz. Muffin, despite her size, is no pushover and relishes things like couch time, esp. with my husband who up until this started happening, let her get away with murder. Would it be better to enforce [i]that?[/i]
Separating them is definitely a viable option as both girls have crates (well, Muffin has a large crate, Sasha has an xpen). I think I will also see if the behaviourist that I spoke to will come to the house.
I just want everyone to be happy and un-hurt.
Thank you so much for your posts. ANYTHING anyone can think of will be well-received!

[pyrless]

here i am again! the rescue remedy is a great idea too.
Sasha does challenge taz, but only for his spot at the fence if they are barking. Apparently this is normal adolescent Pyr behaviour. He puts her in her place in about five seconds and she spends the rest of her time trotting along behind him doing whatever he does. It is night and day!
We have thought about rehoming Muffin because of this but ultimately the thought of giving one up is too heartbreaking for us...

[DogPaddle]

[quote]Muffin, despite her size, is no pushover and relishes things like couch time, esp. with my husband who up until this started happening, let her get away with murder. Would it be better to enforce that?[/quote]

If your going to go with no one having any rank but you I would continue with nilif and include Muffin in that. Maybe only let her on your laps when she has done her nilif and you invite her - this way perhaps Sasha will see you as the uberalpha have told Muffin to do something and Sasha just has no say in that. I think its a good choice to get the behaviourist in. You can talk over any choice you make with them and ask for advise on how to best impliment. Hopefully it will not come to segragation as that can be a bit of a downer but at least the option is open to you. Good for you for working so hard for your doggies and you have my very best wishes for success.

I love rescue remedy and similar products. :D

[pyrless]

thank you! Lap time for NILIF, of course, I don't know why I never included that-(we just do, before they eat, before they go out, before they are let out of their crate, before they get petted). And you know, with the three personalities we've got, being Uberalpha (great term!) is really the only way to be. I REALLY appreciate your advice, that also goes for you, 3ofakind, and I will be back to let you know what is happening.

[pyrless]

hello!
My husband and I have decided to continue the NILIF and pack enforcement (Sasha on top), but also to keep the girls segregated. This is actually less nerve-wracking than constantly being tense and on-guard when they are loose together, because I am sure they can sense that. Everyone already seems happier. The reason we decided to do this, is that the bottom line is there are [i]no guarantees[/i] that one or the other isn't going to challenge the other one ever again be it due to adolescence/old age/food/attention, and whoever starts it, Muffin will end up injured again, or God forbid, dead. So yeah, this is a bit of a lifestyle change, but a much easier one than living entirely without one of them.
Thanks again for your help and encouragement!

[DogPaddle]

Sounds like a good plan. Let us know how it goes.

[imported_Matty]

One thing else Id like to add (having had 2 males which fought and over came it). I made sure that my attitude changed, when the dogs got into a fight I stayed calm and kept a peice of plywood close by to seperate them. I used to get freaked out when they got into it, now I don't and the calmness I feel has reflected on my dogs. I also took them seperately to obedience and formed a special bond with each dog seperately. I also used the NIFIL policy at all times with both males, never let them get into a stressful situation (like out in a fenced area where they might be aroused by out side things which can lead to fence fighting then redirected aggression). Any thing that caused stress in my dogs life I stopped doing. I stopped letting one of my males sleep with me and got them both beds for the floor. I stopped getting really excited when coming home or greeting them and getting them stressed out and possible get jealous and start a squabble. I fed the dogs seperately in seperate rooms, had them sit before getting attention from me. Never gave them any thing they felt worth guarding, gave them alot more exercise and having them exhausted in the evening.
For my guys, I found out what in their life was stressing them out. By reducing their stress and changing my attitude and voice tone and body language I was able to destress the dogs life. They now live happily ever after :wink:
When I think of it I never ever gave firsts to one dog in particular and I didn't do any pack ranking between the dogs. I just let them figure it out on their own. Some days I fed one dog first, the other day I fed the other one. The key is is finding out what is stressing them out, and some times it takes an outsider to figure it out like a behaviorist. :wink:

[pyrless]

hi matty!
i agree with you completely, and actually having them separated has eased alot of the tension in the house and I know they can feel that. Muffin doesn't get the bed anymore, their crates are in separate rooms & that's where they eat, and we havent' given them anything to "guard" either, Basically trying to remove all of the stimulus that would start a fight. I am glad to hear that your boys worked it out! I am sure that Sasha and Muffin will learn to live together. I wish Muffin was bigger so they could just suss it out amongst themselves, but in the absence of that, it's more of an adjustment for me not having all three in the same room!

[pyrless]

i hope you guys are still here...the behaviorist i had spoke to earlier about this situation emailed me today and she said that Sasha is [i]not[/i] bonded to me, she is [i]possessive[/i] of me and is acting "responsible for you and not responsible to you". I don't know what that means. it kind of hurt my feelings. this dog laid next to me the whole six weeks i recovered from surgery (early fall) and the first couple days when I was home she literally walked next to my knee and let me hold onto her collar 'cause i was really unsteady on my feet and it hurt to walk. am i a crazy dog-lady to think my dog loves me? I know she was being possesive the day in question but that doesn't mean she is not bonded to me, right? :cry:

[Kreativnii]

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