Head collars?

[gooeydog]

Am I the only one who thinks that too many people are using those halter type collars as a "crutch", and not bothering to actually train the dogs? I know that like any training tool, they can be overused, but so many people think they're the "cure-all" for every dog. It's annoying when [i]everytime[/i] a dog has any sort of problem, people suggest GLs as a way to "fix" the problem. Sure, they work great on some dogs, and some problems, but they don't replace training. I'm not anti-GL or anything (I use a head collar type thing on Goo when I let my nephews train with her outside, because it makes it easier for them to get her attention), but I don't like to see people brush their dog's problems "under the rug" and not bother to actually try and fix them :madgo:

[alicat613]

Personally I'm not sure. Doesn't a gentle leader address the problem in a way by removing the result the dog wants? The dog pulls to go forward, but the GL makes it so nothing happens other than turning his head, right?

It's an option I'm considering. My boy is very sweet and pretty well behaved but at 5 months he's well into the 70 lbs and as a Great Dane, growing every day. He's normally good on a leash, but when another dog is around or he is really wound up, he pulls. I can't hold him back very well and it's very slippery here so I do worry about falling. We use the command "no pull" but honestly I think he thinks that [i]I'm the one pulling![/i]

I certainly wouldn't use it right off if there weren't any problems. I think my opinion is a little skewed by having such a big dog. As much as you think you prepare, it's hard when you realize that your dog can pull you, sit on you and you can't get up, etc LOL. [/i]

[gooeydog]

[quote name='alicat613']Personally I'm not sure. Doesn't a gentle leader address the problem in a way by removing the result the dog wants? The dog pulls to go forward, but the GL makes it so nothing happens other than turning his head, right?

It's an option I'm considering. My boy is very sweet and pretty well behaved but at 5 months he's well into the 70 lbs and as a Great Dane, growing every day. He's normally good on a leash, but when another dog is around or he is really wound up, he pulls. I can't hold him back very well and it's very slippery here so I do worry about falling. We use the command "no pull" but honestly I think he thinks that [i]I'm the one pulling![/i]

I certainly wouldn't use it right off if there weren't any problems. I think my opinion is a little skewed by having such a big dog. As much as you think you prepare, it's hard when you realize that your dog can pull you, sit on you and you can't get up, etc LOL. [/i][/quote]

Well, it "controls" the problem, because most dogs can't pull with a head collar on. At the same time though, it's almost setting yourself and your dog up for a "dependence" on the collar, because as soon as you take it off, he'll likely be right back to pulling on the normal collar. That's not to say that they don't make good tools for control in certain situations, or until the dog is fully trained, but unless you're planning on using them for the dog's entire life, you still (probably) need to do some retraining on the flat collar. I see your point about him being so big and so young, and it would make sense in your case to use one for control until he's trained to work even in distractions. As long as someone sees the GL type collars as what they are - tools, the same as prong collars, choke collars, or any other training device, I don't have a problem. It bothers me though when they put the GL on their dog because it pulls, then never bother to [i]teach[/i] it not to pull, simply because it [i]doesn't[/i] pull when on the GL. (I'm not sure if that made any sense at all :roll: )

[Luka-pop]

Gentle leaders are very helpful for some dogs that pull hard, but for those that can stand being pulled, it can be dangerous. I work with horses and they use halters, but that's different from a dog. A horse's head is above a person's arms, but a dog's head is usually below. When the dog pulls, the dog ends up having to turn its head to one side because of the impact from the gentle leader. Witha dog that keeps pulling, it could end up straining the dog's neck muscles and stuff.It should only be used with a dog that responds to the leader. With a dog that keeps pulling, a harness would prolly be safer for a dog's neck.

[Carolk9s]

I too have heard of concerns with the dogs neck when they have on a GL. I would be especially concerned of a sudden lunge where the dogs head is going to snap around rather sharply. Perhaps some training say indoors or in an area with only minor distractions and using clicker to reinforce desired behaviour would be helpful. Even if you use a GL in this situation, you can build up the dogs understanding of how you EXPECT him to behave while rewarding him for doing so. After you see that your dog is 'getting it', switch to the regular collar while asking for the same level of behaviour. Don't introduce distractions until you've practiced quite a bit and are seeing a consistant level of cooperation from your dog. Every now and then, put the GL back on for a little reminder but do be mindful of his neck. As Luka-pop mentioned, the motion of the dogs head being pulled sideways as well as the possible upward twist is not going to be good for their necks.

[Black GSD]

[quote name='gooeydog']Am I the only one who thinks that too many people are using those halter type collars as a "crutch", and not bothering to actually train the dogs? :madgo:[/quote]


NO. you are NOT the only one that thinks this way! :D

[bk_blue]

Hmmm yes in one way they are a copout for owners who cannot be bothered correcting their dog's pulling on a normal correction chain...but sometimes there are dogs which will not learn to heel any other way.
BK was a ghastly puller, he would be pulling me along on the lead (correction chain) making sounds like he was about to cark it, he would probably keep going until he passed out :roll: . He's not a large dog (about 25kg) but as strong as anything and twice as stubborn. So I got him a Halti (another brand of head halter) which he HATED (I wonder why, because he couldn't play up lol) but fixed the pulling straight away. Then I began taking him to obedience where he HAD to be on a correction chain and I found that working with him in a formal environment twice a week helped both him and I work on the chain better. He still pulls but not nearly as badly as before, and if he does start playing up I know how to bring him into line. Suffice to say the Halti doesn't get used anymore... :wink:

[eggrolyn1223]

I agree with you gooey, cuz some people just use it but don't train, so what happens when the GL isn't on?I don't think I'll ever use that, because it would just be better to train, and I'm too lazy to try...since the size has to be exactly right.. :roll:

[Guest Anonymous]

I hate it when people use them instead of training! I have a GL, but I only use it when necisary. For instance, today I was taking her for a walk, she was so hyper, I couldn't injoy the walk at all... she wouldn't listen to anything I said! However, I do train not to pull, it's just taking a long time, it seems like one day she seems to understand, but the next all that training just doesn't mater!! :evil:
Here's a great artical about head halters that I read last night by Suzanne Clothier (My hero! LOL :lol: ) [url]http://www.flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html[/url]

[DogPaddle]

I use a GL on Kavik when we go out to the conservation area.
We have worked on heeling quite a bit and off lead in our common green space he is good. On the way back from the conservation area he is not bad maybe even pretty good. On the way to the conservation area he is horrible. We have tried these methods:
1) If he pulls toward something a correct and stand still till the leash goes slack. Result - 5 min walk turns into 45 min, my back and arm ache, Kavik is frustrated. (we don't use this method anymore)
2) Correct before leash becomes taught and turn abruptly and randomly. Result - Kavik does watch me for cues fairly closely and heel after around 20 min off this but he heels after 20 min playing with his kong in the park too. However, after 15minutes his attention wanders again. Also people think I'm mean and/or crazy for zigzagging around repeating strange noises. We still practice with this method but the little devil seems to be able to tell a practice session from a walk and heels not to bad during practice sessions but on "real walks" is far less co-operative.
3) We have tried the snap and voice correction with the flat buckle. Result - Kavik pulls, my arm and back are sore. (we don't do this one at all anymore)
I admit to using the GL to save my arm and back till we can get to the park and wear him out .
His general heeling has improved SOME since we started using it. And no he doesn't like it. Any other suggestions?
BTW we have tried playing kong with him for 15 min before walking to the park and it helps but it is not really a solution, just another crutch and not pratical if we need to take Kavik somewhere on shorter notice.

[Luka-pop]

When I adopted Luka from the shelter, they recommended me to get a GL cuz he pulled hard. I considered the GL, but having used them on the other shelter dogs I volunteer with, I didn't want Luka to be injure his neck and dislike walks. So I got him a harness instead, but once he came home and settled down, my 11 year old (68 lb, 4 ft) sister can walk him with no problems, without the GL. I guess I should go return my $20 harness.
Anyways, there's an website for the GL, which I have never visited befor, but I will when I have time.
[b][size=6][url]http://www.gentleleader.com[/url][/size][/b]
Obviously, the site's gonna tell you about all the pros of the product and no cons to sell it, but oh well.

[DogPaddle]

Reviving this thread because I have a further question.
Kavik is in obedience and he is very exciteable and barks quite a bit and is being disruptive. We are working on his look/watch command and have distraction techniques for him but the instructor suggested using his halti in class to help him focus. This does work like a charm. The change in his behaviour is extreme, he goes from a wilddog who only does the excercises between zoomies and barking to one of the best behaved in class who will (sometimes) watch me to see what excercise we are going to do next. When we are are at home we practice without the halti and do just fine. So are we developing a "crutch" for Kavik or is it a useful tool?

[Malamum]

I think there needs to be a happy medium. Originally I didn’t want to use the GL or Halti as I felt that by using either of them it meant that I wasn’t training Indy properly. Well, at 8 months he weighs 40kg (88lb) is extremely strong. He can almost pull me off my feet if I am not ready, and he is only going to get bigger and stronger. Like Alicat’s baby he is fine on a flat collar as long as we don’t see any other dogs but when we do he goes nuts, and this really takes the enjoyment out of taking him for a walk. So we now use the Halti and don’t have any problems. I am hoping that as he gets a bit older he will not get so hyper at the sight of other dogs but until that happens I think we will need to keep using the Halti.

I definitely agree that these tools shouldn’t be used as a crutch but……. there are a lot of dog owners out there who only do the right thing by their dog if it’s convenient for them. I.E. before the days of GL’s or Halti’s if a dog pulled to much these people would just not walk them at all because it was too hard. At least with the introduction of these the dogs are getting walked.